Curse

Ravious · Apr 22, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

The skills system will be modified. There will be fewer, less complex skills which may behave differently in different situations, such as if the character is jumping or is surrounded by monsters. As in Guild Wars, characters will have access to only a limited number of skills at a time.

This.

I am kind of surprised you only tangentially touched the sheer amount of skills. I think that is a huge problem. I think the GW2 system (as originally proposed) is a step in the right direction... fewer skills with more situational (and possibly trait-like) modifications.

JR · Apr 22, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

This.

I am kind of surprised you only tangentially touched the sheer amount of skills. I think that is a huge problem. I think the GW2 system (as originally proposed) is a step in the right direction... fewer skills with more situational (and possibly trait-like) modifications.

I agree, and I look forward to hearing more about this system. I wasn't trying to cover every issue in the original post, just those that seemed most crucial to me.

EPO Bot · Apr 22, 2009, 03:43 PM // 15:43

I think GW2 should only have the core professions wich should be made deeper in every expansion. I only seem to have fun with the six cores anyway.

Bug John · Apr 22, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Unfortunately they are still abusable by gimmicks, but nearly everything will be as long as godmode stays in the game.

It's not a question of godmode (perma sf ?), monsters just obey a basic AI, and as long as you are smarter you'll find the easiest way to kill them.

Yichi · Apr 22, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

At OP: I do not agree with your balancing idea. If the skills would be balanced already at the beginning I think PVP would die. Since there is so much to be corrected every month makes it so interesting. You are forced to change builds after every bigger skill update. I am afraid with your idea we will ended up with guilds running all the time the same builds...

On the contrary, this would actually promote more build diversity and less gimmicky play as there would be no clear advantage over running one set of skilsl or one build over another. It would give more teams an even chance, which then falls back on strategy and team play, which is the way PvP in this game used to be.

edit: @JR's post... I agree 100%

Martin Kerstein · Apr 22, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Nice read JR..

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeraCombi

AION (another NCSoft title that Anet is currently tweaking) [...]

Aion was not developed by us, it was developed by NCsoft Korea

JR · Apr 22, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Kerstein

Nice read JR..

I tried to keep it to a few bullet points, really I did.

FoxBat · Apr 22, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

While we're in this topic, I wonder if anyone has any ideas about power creep. This will happen as long as new skills are added to the game, which is almost inevitable. Any of the new skills that are remotely viable will outdate other options. There isn't any way to keep the added power level in check without rebalancing every single skill in response to new skill additions, which is unfeasible. This can actually be worse without expansion classes, since they "contained" some of the new skill additions by seperating them into different classes and attribute lines. CCGs control this through "rotation" where old card sets eventually leave so the power doesn't just keep piling up- I doubt they can do this in the MMO setting.

Also I'd really like some kind of official support for limited-play (sealed or even draft) in GW2, that would add a ton of variety without need for constant rebalances.

Lonesamurai · Apr 22, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I tried to keep it to a few bullet points, really I did.

yeah yeah yeah...

DreamWind · Apr 22, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Agree with OP mostly. Just a few things I question though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Balance updates should be much more frequent, and with much more of a delicate touch. Small regular tweaks, rather than bi-monthly dartboard sessions.

Agree with this, but I question how long you would want the updates to continue. There are a lot of people who want constant updates solely for the purpose of changing the metagame. I don't agree with that. I feel there should be tweaks until the game is in a state of balance where it can evolve on its own. I think the players should be able to evolve the game, not the updates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Solution: When an opponent is found, and you get the final count down, have it display who you are fighting and on which map. In this time allow skill swapping. This will allow you to have pre-planned basic modifications to combat any popular gimmick. It will also add a very healthy and fun element of metagaming to the otherwise completely random ladder play. This is a more complicated solution than I would like, but it's the only way I can think of to address the problem.

I agree with the problem, but I don't like the solution. It is complicated and slows the game down too much for the average player (getting games going is already slow enough). I think if gimmicks exist than they exist...but the balance updates should fix anything degenerate. I don't think a pregame solution would work...now in tournaments I could see best of 3s with a "sideboard" (a la MTG), but in best of 1s I'm not sure what you can do. Maybe completely random maps?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Attach gold capes to the accounts, not the guild. Visual recognition on a player level rather than a guild level would have much more meaning. All members of a winning guild who played in one or more mAT rounds should get a gold cape associated with their account. It should be non-transferable.

What stops people from buying/selling the accounts? Yea I suppose it would be better than buying/selling the guilds...but I still think the whole situation is pathetic. I'm starting to think buying/selling of these things should be bannable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

PvP and PvE Skill Split
I always saw this as a temporary band-aid fix for balance in Guild Wars. A way to appease the masses and move on. I now think more and more that it is an inevitable inclusion for Guild Wars 2. What other way is there to avoid the issue of stepping on each others toes? Even the plethora of PvE only skills doesn't solve the problem.

I think most of the problems with the PvE and PvP divide in Guild Wars stem from the opposite - the two being too closely linked.

Interesting thought. I think we've seen the problems with a CORPG over the years and this is one of them. I have always been against the skill split, because I am of the original idea of the game that PvE led into PvP. Since they used the same skills, it made things easier when a player playing PvP was familiar with all the skills being used already. The split and addition of PvE only skills just made an already complicated game even more complicated. Not to mention the fact that 90% of the PvP skill updates did almost nothing to change the PvE game, and I feel that the split wasn't for the best. But I suppose you are right in that it was/is inevitable.

korcan · Apr 22, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Everything you want hinges on whether the business model for GW succeeded over the long-term.

Since you mainly PvP. You should be aware that PvP in GW was very inaccessible to people who didnt' pick up the game very shortly after release.

PvP in GW helped the game initially in terms of longevity, but look at where it is today?

A very small group of people, like yourself, were fortunate enough to get into PvP when you did because the rest of us weren't "deemed good enough" to even participate.

If GW2 doesn't address the immediate problem of accessibility for PvP, I'm sure you'll see the same problems all over again.

Why bother with PvP when only a small percentage of your player base even cares.

JR · Apr 22, 2009, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

Why bother with PvP when only a small percentage of your player base even cares.

That I believe is a false statement. Sure you don't get 16 districts of HA anymore, and GvG wait times have gone up considerably, but there is still a sizable community that enjoys PvP in Guild Wars.

Keep this in mind. When the game released there was no UAX, and unlocking took a LONG time. A PvP player had to get elites with Cap Sigs like everyone else. They had to grind for PvE equipment because it was superior to PvP equipment in a lot of cases.

http://guild-hall.net/forum/showthre...hlight=finally

A thread from May 2005, where people were talking about finally unlocking everything. One poster say it took them 767 hours to do it, another says 900 hours. That is 900 hours of grind that PvP players had to go through in order to feel they were on a competitive field.

Then there were the issues with Gaile Gray, which I wont get too deep into. Rest assured the PvP crowd felt persecuted, and had very little representation. Possibly for this reason it took a long time for skill balances and PvP game updates to start arriving in a timely manner.

There were no Automated Tournaments. There were a mere two tournaments (though they were huge) in the years previous to ATs being introduced. There were no cape trims, no reward points, no ZKeys. There was nothing to play for but glory.

So, yes. The PvP crowd for Guild Wars isn't as big as it should be. For every one of the reasons I listed above, and more I don't care to mention, people have left the game and gone elsewhere. If Guild Wars 2 actually does PvP right from the beginning you could see a big swing in those numbers.

Also for every one of those reasons the divide between the PvE and PvP player bases grew larger and larger. I don't think skill separation or not would have had much or any impact on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

Since you mainly PvP. You should be aware that PvP in GW was very inaccessible to people who didnt' pick up the game very shortly after release.

A very small group of people, like yourself, were fortunate enough to get into PvP when you did because the rest of us weren't "deemed good enough" to even participate.

I don't think this is a true reflection either. There are people at the top of the ladder now who were in no way competitive even as little as a year ago.

korcan · Apr 22, 2009, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Accessiblity is still a huge problem for newer PvP players.

If PvP was truely supposed to be "end-game" content for GW, NCsoft failed miserably.

The amount of support for PvP is justified by it's player base. If your player base is basically static for the life of your product, why even bother to support it?

JR · Apr 22, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

Accessiblity is still a huge problem for newer PvP players.

I wont disagree with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by korcan

The amount of support for PvP is justified by it's player base. If your player base is basically static for the life of your product, why even bother to support it?

Circular reasoning. The player base is small because of lack of support.

Snow Bunny · Apr 22, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Vertex-

There shouldn't be key skills for any class (i.e. diversion for mesmers, frenzy for warriors, dshot for rangers etc) to begin with. Strong standalone skills like dshot, that don't have synergy with anything and yet work on every ranger bar should be avoided. To increase build diversity, every skill in the game should be fairly bad on its own but have synergies with certain other skills that increase its effect.

This would lead to possibly even more abuse with ridiculous combos.

You would turn this into MTG, which I'm not entirely sure is a good thing.

Martin Firestorm · Apr 22, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

There was nothing to play for but glory.

Don't forget the cash.

JR · Apr 22, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

Don't forget the cash.

Right, for the very few guilds who managed to get a spot in the tournament and place well enough, at a time when the game was its most competitive.

I'm talking about the PvP community as a whole here.

Bryant Again · Apr 22, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Hm. I'm pretty sure I agree with everything in there.

I really want to applaud you for being against the additional classes, though. Sure they were fun but the problems they caused far (FAAAAAAARx1000) outweigh that.

Grj · Apr 22, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Circular reasoning. The player base is small because of lack of support.

This, for the people who i played with now play other games. The game got boring, lack of any descent update, grinding the ladder, playing against people running the same build over and over or a variation of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

Don't forget the cash.

If the not got the money to fund someone to balance the game maybe they should of cut some of the prize money they was offering and used some of it now...

Sarevok Thordin · Apr 22, 2009, 09:10 PM // 21:10

I just want to say.....

About the Spirits, they were a TERRIBLE idea for PvP, all they did was encourage turtling, Rits would go in, setup a motherlode of spirits in a small area and his team would sit about there.

The other team would either do the same at their end (resulting in a game of chicken) or the non-rit team would be forced to wait it out or try to pick off spirits, with the unlucky sap who gets chosen to do the job getting beaten by any and all ranged skills.

Turtling all day != Good. VoD camping had to be nuked because it encouraged too much turtling.